Suspending students for protesting is ridiculous, what the school is actually doing is teaching students to be compliant, automatons never to question authority. Some years ago several students at Leo Hayes where banned from attending their graduation ceremonies’ for protesting the schools lack of action for controlling bullying. In both cases the Chill effect is created, reinforcing it’s best to keep your mouth shut and not rock the boat.
Personally, I believe that all schools should have their own school uniforms, it’s not as much as for conformity, but to eliminate the “Social class structure”. However this post is not what this post is about.
So what is the role of our educational system, to foster critical thinking? To produce an army of automatons to grease the wheels of capitalism? Is that what the schools system is all about, only to teach conformity and skills sets to get a job? From what I have seen over the years and regardless of who in power our school system fails miserably at fostering independent critical thinking, even among some of the students, students who think outside of the box are subject to ridicule and ostracize by their peers.
Whether one agrees with the students position or the schools position on the dress code, credit has to be given to the students for questioning the code, What important is the thought process that the students had to go through to make this decision, I assume that they did their research to support their cause, and this is what should be encourage. Logic is, if they fail to get the empirical support for relaxing the dress code then they will fail in convincing the school to change their policy and fail at gaining significant public support.
If this post was not on the question whether or not the students suspension but on the issue of the dress code, then I would support the schools decision to uphold the exiting dress code, but that is a separate issue with its own arguments.
That's ONE of the issues Andre, and I can't add anything to that. The idea that an institution that pretty much looks like a prison, and FORCES young people to do what their told and learn what their told, would teach 'critical thinking' is pretty funny. And I don't think even those in the system would say that it does. Clearly its designed to train people in conformity, and it does a pretty good job. By the time they are adults, most canadians aren't even interested in expressing their individuality publicly.
However, its pretty common for media to get protests wrong, in fact when do they ever get it right? Dumbing it down to charles level of 'wanting to walk around half naked' is almost what the media has done.
But like any protest if you want to understand it, you actually listen to the people protesting. Its always ironic to hear Charles write like this, because more than anyone he ought to know what its like to have your complaints twisted around to seem unreasonable.
First though, 'half naked' would pretty much be shorts and a t shirt. Something that most people are wearing outside all summer long (and not many of these girls have said 'I should be able to wear shorts and a t shirt in december). Plus, not only that, but shorts and a t shirt is essentially the 'uniform' for gym class. So its certainly not the case that schools don't allow you to be 'half naked', in fact they demand it part of the time.
But if you just go watch their video then you can SEE their concerns. Its not so much the dress code as the reactions to it, as well as the whole sexualization issue. Part of that issue, as one girl says, is that when she complained about sexual harassment, she was criticized on 'wearing a low cut shirt'-which of course begs the question as to what the dress code is all about, since obviously low cut shirts were permissible. Another girl makes the comment that a vice principal followed her to three different classes to 'make sure I was wearing my sweater'. Now, THAT is just downright creepy. Another makes the claim that the teacher herself told the students 'they dress like sluts'.
So ANYBODY that thinks this is just about students wanting to go to school half naked is delusional. This is young girls basically protesting a system where if you wore shorts to school, and some creepy guy leered at you all day, the 'system' would either tell you just don't wear shorts, or in this case even PUNISH you for wearing shorts, while the young creep is ignored with the line 'boys will be boys' and will possibly go on to even creepier actions now that they know how society reacts to such things.
I could only find the video here, http://www.chicagonow.com/gender-politics-parenting/2014/11/how-to-fight-back-against-school-dress-codes-a-group-of-high-school-girls-fight-the-dress-code-nazi/
I encourage Charles especially to check it out, as I think he'd agree that its somewhat unfair to characterize protest based on what the media says.
And its worth noting that throughout all this, these girls are dealing with educational administrators-all of whom so far are men, claiming first that the issues the girls are raising don't exist, and then within days stating 'these things don't change in a day'. So clearly even those in power are starting to recognize these girl's concerns.
But where's Maurice? We can't have a thread like this without adding women to that darn list of those 'with more rights' than us poor white men! They get to wear dresses after all! Con sarn it!:)
I am willing to bet the vice principal was Mike Barrett. He is a very dangerous man and should not be anywhere minors. He will harass and even assault to get his own way. Ask his son.
Mikel, in the news coverage one girl actually WAS wearing shorts and a Tshirt - even in this weather. My sons went to FHS and I found the code very reasonable, for example - no cropped shirts and exposed midriffs and no see through leggings - i.e. no underware on display; there was nothing unreasonable in it. School is for learning - not oggling the girls, and teenagers get distracted in class, which I must assume is one of the reasons for the code. As for protesting, I am all for it and all for encouraging it but only when there is a serious issue that merits protesting, which this is not. This is fostering rebellion, not change based in reason or common sense.
As for fostering critical thinking, I think the school would have been better off to offer the students an open debate, in which the whole school could participate and the teachers and principle could explain the dress code properly, including telling the children they need to protest at the school's regional head office, not the instrument of their will. There were better ways to handle this than using FPF bullies and children being suspended.
The children should understand the reasons for the dress code and accept that they are free to dress any way they wish outside of school hours - and also that the way many of them dress will not be accepted in a workplace and will not get them through a job interview. Both parties in this are doing a poor job for their causes.
I just watched the video that Mikel found and I wasn't impressed. Girls need to understand that provocative and revealing dress can indeed bring out the creeps. Women are physically not as strong as men - which is why we get so many rapes and sexual assaults. These young women are correct in theory, but in reality there are many creeps and abusers out there. And why should the boys be punished for girls wearing their undergarments hanging out, with low cut or cropped tops? School should be a place with minimal distractions, including the way girls dress. I agree they should all be in uniform, if the dress code is so disrespected and such an issue of contention. I have seen the way some of these girls can dress and I would never let a child of mine out in public like that, so their parents need to get real too.
The school is preparing people for professional roles. This is one thing they must learn that appropriate dress is a part of the workplace. It will bring credibility and respect. I don't see the kids at the local fast foods or other workplaces dressing in crop tops and shorts. Scholl should be no different and should be treated with respect by the students.
The best way to swindle someone from their life savings is to to be clean shaven, a dark three piece suite with a red tie and create the illusion that you are an expert. People who are judgmental and make decisions on stereotypes are so easy to manipulate, give em what they want to see. ... Dumb asses.
Whether YOU find the dress code reasonable isn't really the issue. First of all, its interesting that shorts and a t shirt do NOT show a midriff or underwear, and like I said, they have to wear them in gym class, and you STILL complain.
Guys will ogle girls at that age no matter what. They could be freaking mennonites in dresses and guys will still try to watch for a change in light so they can see through them, and ironically, the 'uniform' of the catholic school shows more skin than most other girls wear. Thats what guys do at that age, and again, thats partly what the girls are complaining about, that this whole issue of rape culture and sexualization is all basically focused on how women DRESS, and not what men DO.
And who cares if you were impressed? Some people complain about anything anybody else complains about. The fact that these girls show any kind of political initiative is actually pretty impressive. If they were complaining about having to use pencils instead of pens, then that would be silly. But these girls are basically fighting a system that has been operating in this way, well, forever.
And the logic above is simply wrong-unless of course your idea of a job is that you are training these girls to work in fast food restaurants (which says a lot about your idea of women in the first place). Some of the biggest money earners are fashion models, fashion designers, actresses, all people who often wear hardly nothing if it suits them. But more importantly, men should be joining that band wagon anyway. Who likes wearing a suit and tie to work five days a week? On CBC they had a show talking about the work women have to do putting on makeup etc., one woman even said that the system would change if only more women were at the top, not realizing that its crazy to think that the MEN at the top like wearing full suits all day long. Just go to the golf course and see if that is what they are wearing.
In short, 'protest' is NEVER about accepting things as they are. So saying "they have to learn ..." is a pretty useless comment. The other about debate is also ludicrous-"come and argue with other students, and in the end we will do what we want anyway". As for the other comment, that would make sense IF the girls weren't forced to go to school. Forcing somebody to go somewhere for seven hours a day and saying 'you can wear what you want' for the other four, seems kind of nonsensical.
Anyway, the latest from the superintendent was that they are meeting with the girls again and they are indeed going to start talking about resolving their issues seriously. Actually, if I knew how to contact them I'd suggest they take their punishment in stride-they should get as many girls as possible to QUIT school and start home schooling and preparing to take a GED. They'd actually get a better education, and that would really teach them the basic rule of protest-that whoever you protest against needs to know you can 'take your business elsewhere'.
As usual Mikel is of the wall. The last statement negates everything. Go home girls. Get a GED that will insure that you stay at the bottom. Perhaps if you got pregnant too you would then be work for all the male social workers, court workers, shelters, and food banks. Go men Go.
Mikel seems to have a disability when it comes to understanding common sense. Brilliant comment at 17:47. I agree that there should be a dress code that requires midriffs, cleavage, upper thighs and underware to be be covered up while in school - and I agree that these kids can dress however they want when they are not in school. I have also seen how these girls dress and I would be ashamed if they were one of my children. The dress code makes perfect sense to me.
Life is full of rules and regulations, which have to be abided by, or people end up jobless, homeless or charged with an offense. Battles have to be chosen and this one will not be won by the kids who were protesting - who's names will not be forgotten by some in this small, judgmental City when it comes time to apply for jobs. They are not adults and this is not a political arena - it is a school, where I believe there are over 1,000 children who have to be kept in order, for the safety of the pupils and teachers. Those pupils have to respect their teachers and their fellow pupils, which includes the way they dress, and this respect is a foundation stone required for their adult lives. If they, and their parents, object to the rules they should stay away and be home schooled. Their conduct is nothing to be proud of - let them protest by all means, but make it something worth protesting about. When they are old enough to vote they can make all the political commentary they want - but right now they are children, whose parents and schools decide how things are.
Suspending students for protesting is ridiculous, what the school is actually doing is teaching students to be compliant, automatons never to question authority. Some years ago several students at Leo Hayes where banned from attending their graduation ceremonies’ for protesting the schools lack of action for controlling bullying. In both cases the Chill effect is created, reinforcing it’s best to keep your mouth shut and not rock the boat.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I believe that all schools should have their own school uniforms, it’s not as much as for conformity, but to eliminate the “Social class structure”. However this post is not what this post is about.
So what is the role of our educational system, to foster critical thinking? To produce an army of automatons to grease the wheels of capitalism? Is that what the schools system is all about, only to teach conformity and skills sets to get a job? From what I have seen over the years and regardless of who in power our school system fails miserably at fostering independent critical thinking, even among some of the students, students who think outside of the box are subject to ridicule and ostracize by their peers.
Whether one agrees with the students position or the schools position on the dress code, credit has to be given to the students for questioning the code, What important is the thought process that the students had to go through to make this decision, I assume that they did their research to support their cause, and this is what should be encourage. Logic is, if they fail to get the empirical support for relaxing the dress code then they will fail in convincing the school to change their policy and fail at gaining significant public support.
If this post was not on the question whether or not the students suspension but on the issue of the dress code, then I would support the schools decision to uphold the exiting dress code, but that is a separate issue with its own arguments.
That's ONE of the issues Andre, and I can't add anything to that. The idea that an institution that pretty much looks like a prison, and FORCES young people to do what their told and learn what their told, would teach 'critical thinking' is pretty funny. And I don't think even those in the system would say that it does. Clearly its designed to train people in conformity, and it does a pretty good job. By the time they are adults, most canadians aren't even interested in expressing their individuality publicly.
ReplyDeleteHowever, its pretty common for media to get protests wrong, in fact when do they ever get it right? Dumbing it down to charles level of 'wanting to walk around half naked' is almost what the media has done.
But like any protest if you want to understand it, you actually listen to the people protesting. Its always ironic to hear Charles write like this, because more than anyone he ought to know what its like to have your complaints twisted around to seem unreasonable.
First though, 'half naked' would pretty much be shorts and a t shirt. Something that most people are wearing outside all summer long (and not many of these girls have said 'I should be able to wear shorts and a t shirt in december). Plus, not only that, but shorts and a t shirt is essentially the 'uniform' for gym class. So its certainly not the case that schools don't allow you to be 'half naked', in fact they demand it part of the time.
But if you just go watch their video then you can SEE their concerns. Its not so much the dress code as the reactions to it, as well as the whole sexualization issue. Part of that issue, as one girl says, is that when she complained about sexual harassment, she was criticized on 'wearing a low cut shirt'-which of course begs the question as to what the dress code is all about, since obviously low cut shirts were permissible. Another girl makes the comment that a vice principal followed her to three different classes to 'make sure I was wearing my sweater'. Now, THAT is just downright creepy. Another makes the claim that the teacher herself told the students 'they dress like sluts'.
So ANYBODY that thinks this is just about students wanting to go to school half naked is delusional. This is young girls basically protesting a system where if you wore shorts to school, and some creepy guy leered at you all day, the 'system' would either tell you just don't wear shorts, or in this case even PUNISH you for wearing shorts, while the young creep is ignored with the line 'boys will be boys' and will possibly go on to even creepier actions now that they know how society reacts to such things.
I could only find the video here, http://www.chicagonow.com/gender-politics-parenting/2014/11/how-to-fight-back-against-school-dress-codes-a-group-of-high-school-girls-fight-the-dress-code-nazi/
I encourage Charles especially to check it out, as I think he'd agree that its somewhat unfair to characterize protest based on what the media says.
And its worth noting that throughout all this, these girls are dealing with educational administrators-all of whom so far are men, claiming first that the issues the girls are raising don't exist, and then within days stating 'these things don't change in a day'. So clearly even those in power are starting to recognize these girl's concerns.
But where's Maurice? We can't have a thread like this without adding women to that darn list of those 'with more rights' than us poor white men! They get to wear dresses after all! Con sarn it!:)
I am willing to bet the vice principal was Mike Barrett. He is a very dangerous man and should not be anywhere minors. He will harass and even assault to get his own way. Ask his son.
ReplyDeleteShould have said ask his gay son.
ReplyDeleteIt is a good thing that they don't have Ann Kraus, the former principal. She would retaliate right into their family and make their lives impossible.
ReplyDeleteMikel, in the news coverage one girl actually WAS wearing shorts and a Tshirt - even in this weather. My sons went to FHS and I found the code very reasonable, for example - no cropped shirts and exposed midriffs and no see through leggings - i.e. no underware on display; there was nothing unreasonable in it. School is for learning - not oggling the girls, and teenagers get distracted in class, which I must assume is one of the reasons for the code. As for protesting, I am all for it and all for encouraging it but only when there is a serious issue that merits protesting, which this is not. This is fostering rebellion, not change based in reason or common sense.
ReplyDeleteAs for fostering critical thinking, I think the school would have been better off to offer the students an open debate, in which the whole school could participate and the teachers and principle could explain the dress code properly, including telling the children they need to protest at the school's regional head office, not the instrument of their will. There were better ways to handle this than using FPF bullies and children being suspended.
The children should understand the reasons for the dress code and accept that they are free to dress any way they wish outside of school hours - and also that the way many of them dress will not be accepted in a workplace and will not get them through a job interview. Both parties in this are doing a poor job for their causes.
I just watched the video that Mikel found and I wasn't impressed. Girls need to understand that provocative and revealing dress can indeed bring out the creeps. Women are physically not as strong as men - which is why we get so many rapes and sexual assaults. These young women are correct in theory, but in reality there are many creeps and abusers out there. And why should the boys be punished for girls wearing their undergarments hanging out, with low cut or cropped tops? School should be a place with minimal distractions, including the way girls dress. I agree they should all be in uniform, if the dress code is so disrespected and such an issue of contention. I have seen the way some of these girls can dress and I would never let a child of mine out in public like that, so their parents need to get real too.
ReplyDeleteThe school is preparing people for professional roles. This is one thing they must learn that appropriate dress is a part of the workplace. It will bring credibility and respect. I don't see the kids at the local fast foods or other workplaces dressing in crop tops and shorts. Scholl should be no different and should be treated with respect by the students.
ReplyDeleteThe best way to swindle someone from their life savings is to to be clean shaven, a dark three piece suite with a red tie and create the illusion that you are an expert. People who are judgmental and make decisions on stereotypes are so easy to manipulate, give em what they want to see. ... Dumb asses.
ReplyDeleteWhether YOU find the dress code reasonable isn't really the issue. First of all, its interesting that shorts and a t shirt do NOT show a midriff or underwear, and like I said, they have to wear them in gym class, and you STILL complain.
ReplyDeleteGuys will ogle girls at that age no matter what. They could be freaking mennonites in dresses and guys will still try to watch for a change in light so they can see through them, and ironically, the 'uniform' of the catholic school shows more skin than most other girls wear. Thats what guys do at that age, and again, thats partly what the girls are complaining about, that this whole issue of rape culture and sexualization is all basically focused on how women DRESS, and not what men DO.
And who cares if you were impressed? Some people complain about anything anybody else complains about. The fact that these girls show any kind of political initiative is actually pretty impressive. If they were complaining about having to use pencils instead of pens, then that would be silly. But these girls are basically fighting a system that has been operating in this way, well, forever.
And the logic above is simply wrong-unless of course your idea of a job is that you are training these girls to work in fast food restaurants (which says a lot about your idea of women in the first place). Some of the biggest money earners are fashion models, fashion designers, actresses, all people who often wear hardly nothing if it suits them. But more importantly, men should be joining that band wagon anyway. Who likes wearing a suit and tie to work five days a week? On CBC they had a show talking about the work women have to do putting on makeup etc., one woman even said that the system would change if only more women were at the top, not realizing that its crazy to think that the MEN at the top like wearing full suits all day long. Just go to the golf course and see if that is what they are wearing.
In short, 'protest' is NEVER about accepting things as they are. So saying "they have to learn ..." is a pretty useless comment. The other about debate is also ludicrous-"come and argue with other students, and in the end we will do what we want anyway". As for the other comment, that would make sense IF the girls weren't forced to go to school. Forcing somebody to go somewhere for seven hours a day and saying 'you can wear what you want' for the other four, seems kind of nonsensical.
Anyway, the latest from the superintendent was that they are meeting with the girls again and they are indeed going to start talking about resolving their issues seriously. Actually, if I knew how to contact them I'd suggest they take their punishment in stride-they should get as many girls as possible to QUIT school and start home schooling and preparing to take a GED. They'd actually get a better education, and that would really teach them the basic rule of protest-that whoever you protest against needs to know you can 'take your business elsewhere'.
As usual Mikel is of the wall. The last statement negates everything. Go home girls. Get a GED that will insure that you stay at the bottom. Perhaps if you got pregnant too you would then be work for all the male social workers, court workers, shelters, and food banks. Go men Go.
ReplyDeleteMikel seems to have a disability when it comes to understanding common sense. Brilliant comment at 17:47. I agree that there should be a dress code that requires midriffs, cleavage, upper thighs and underware to be be covered up while in school - and I agree that these kids can dress however they want when they are not in school. I have also seen how these girls dress and I would be ashamed if they were one of my children. The dress code makes perfect sense to me.
ReplyDeleteLife is full of rules and regulations, which have to be abided by, or people end up jobless, homeless or charged with an offense. Battles have to be chosen and this one will not be won by the kids who were protesting - who's names will not be forgotten by some in this small, judgmental City when it comes time to apply for jobs. They are not adults and this is not a political arena - it is a school, where I believe there are over 1,000 children who have to be kept in order, for the safety of the pupils and teachers. Those pupils have to respect their teachers and their fellow pupils, which includes the way they dress, and this respect is a foundation stone required for their adult lives. If they, and their parents, object to the rules they should stay away and be home schooled. Their conduct is nothing to be proud of - let them protest by all means, but make it something worth protesting about. When they are old enough to vote they can make all the political commentary they want - but right now they are children, whose parents and schools decide how things are.
ReplyDelete